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Epic Ownage Post on Box Office Mojo:
Darth Ledger
Posts: 6,594 ✭✭✭✭✭
I think the entire Potter reading nation must be on crack. It's the only way to explain the love for that very ordinary series.
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This will be the start of me tackling this once and for all. Firstly, Potter loonies did not want to see Voldie and Potter duel. The saga was ending, Deathly Hallows 2 was the final Potter movie and with it, it ended an era, as both the novels and the films had come to a close. What I wanted to see personally, was a send-off for the ages, and while I didn't get that, many people did. The novels are a lot more intricate and deeper than a final battle between Lord Voldemort and Harry Potter and I'm sorry if you never managed to see that through your seemingly impenetrable veil of hate as you've so often shown.
Twilight loonies may want to see a wedding, sex and a demon baby but that doesn't mean Noctis' opinion is incorrect that you had to retort with an incredibly juvenile and predictable response. Now the latter half of his sentence is not any better but there is a definite link between how bad the book was if the most anticipated scene is one of a couple fornicating. I might as well say that it's porn, since the majority of viewers, who am I kidding, all the viewers, are only waiting for the woman to get -=-=-. Given that the majority of fans of these books are tweens who have little to no experience with sex, maybe it's a valid anticipated scene, but then, this just means it's a phase they will grow out of.
Now obviously just because a lot of people like something, it doesn't mean it's good, yet you seem to only use this reasoning as an excuse for your contrarianism. Sure, not everything will be for everyone, and in any given case you can find something overrated or unworthy of its praise, but with seven books and eight movies all being critically acclaimed and most viewers liking each one, it is highly unlikely that the series is purely ordinary and everyone must be on crack to love it. In other words, a good and valid criticism is one that can't be flipped around and applied to everything, and the fact that yours can be and stems from Noctis' post shows that it is purely reactionary and another incendiary attempt.
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quote: Originally posted by baumer*:
I think Twilight is brilliant. And compared to Potter it's Shakespeare. But this is just my opinion.
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If that wasn't enough to show it, here we go again. Twilight is Shakespeare compared to Potter? Is there any way to validate this statement? Oh, "this is just my opinion". Well, I think Gentle Ben hit it on the head hard when he said:
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quote: Originally posted by Gentle Ben:
I've finally realized what the purpose of the "this is just my opinion" tag is for! It's not for opinions, because those are readily identifiable without it. It's a way of immunizing indefensible claims against criticism. Slick!
quote: Originally posted by baumer*:
Well, you're going to have to do better than that Gentle Ben. I've been slagged for two years for liking Twilight. Criticism of my taste doesn't phase me. Its a fantastic story and its told with expert writing skills. I love the Twilight world.
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Yet, have you once even managed to make a valid point or have you ever been able to defend the criticism directed at it? Here, he isn't even criticizing your taste per se, what he did say is that you used the statement as a blanket ban on all future arguments against your "point". If you cannot justify your statement, then don't make it. Don't say "this is just my opinion" as though it explains why something is better than another. Otherwise why do we disapprove of radical Islamists, racists and Hitler? "Jihad is better than education to make a point.", "Whites are better than blacks.", "Aryans are superior to Jews and all other peoples who do not fit our description." If I prefaced it or if I ended my statement with "But this is just my opinion." it doesn't make your claim or "opinion" indefensible or well-argued. That statement does not absolve all valid arguments against it because it is as Gentle Ben put it. You have nothing to argue with, so let's just drop it in.
quote: Originally posted by baumer*:
Thanks for the tip Zodiac.
The story is what sells in Twilight. I don't care if Meyer is not as technically brilliant as King or LeCarre or Rowling. The story of vampires and werewolves living in precarious harmony in small town America and the love triangle that ensues when a big city girl arrives, is what sold me on it. I love it. If you don't, that is your perogative. But there are many that do, including yours truly. Wink
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As for the second part of your statement, you already refuted it in a previous post. If it's not technically brilliant how is it told with expert writing skills? Just another quandary you seem to have dug yourself into when giving no thought or credible point to your argument. The story is what sells Twilight? Again Gentle Ben put it perfectly when saying:
quote: Originally posted by Gentle Ben:
The entire story of the entire second and third entries can be summed up in two words: which boy?
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which was also a perfect counter-argument to your ill-thought out:
quote: Originally posted by baumer*:
the story is furthered every time. Potter's isn't.
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which honestly is pure stupidity. You once were writing a novel, and I would hope then that like usual, you are just simply being your contrarian and incendiary self because, and I'm not sorry for being so direct, you aren't going to get far with such obviously incorrect statements. Oh wait, with the state of the industry, you might, but that doesn't mean you're right, because the giveaway of bad writing, is adding elements in later that had no link to the past or rather adding elements that are completely detached and useless a la the Volturi who from what I've read could be one of the weakest attempts at villains. In fact, the central conflict of all the Twilight books is pretty poor on paper, and probably in execution, but that doesn't seem to phase you for whatever reason. Yet it is imperative you must put down Potter and its story to boost your love for Twilight and that is pretty poor attack and defence as well.
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quote: Originally posted by baumer*:
Sanity has nothing to do with it.
I find a lot of Potter's story very bland. It spanned 7 books and it could have been told in maybe 3. IMO, Twilight warrants 4 books and the story is furthered every time. Potter's isn't. Wink
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The Wink doesn't make your statement any less controversial, contrarian or incorrect. The IMO comes out again as a way to end discussion. Poor show.
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This will be the start of me tackling this once and for all. Firstly, Potter loonies did not want to see Voldie and Potter duel. The saga was ending, Deathly Hallows 2 was the final Potter movie and with it, it ended an era, as both the novels and the films had come to a close. What I wanted to see personally, was a send-off for the ages, and while I didn't get that, many people did. The novels are a lot more intricate and deeper than a final battle between Lord Voldemort and Harry Potter and I'm sorry if you never managed to see that through your seemingly impenetrable veil of hate as you've so often shown.
Twilight loonies may want to see a wedding, sex and a demon baby but that doesn't mean Noctis' opinion is incorrect that you had to retort with an incredibly juvenile and predictable response. Now the latter half of his sentence is not any better but there is a definite link between how bad the book was if the most anticipated scene is one of a couple fornicating. I might as well say that it's porn, since the majority of viewers, who am I kidding, all the viewers, are only waiting for the woman to get -=-=-. Given that the majority of fans of these books are tweens who have little to no experience with sex, maybe it's a valid anticipated scene, but then, this just means it's a phase they will grow out of.
Now obviously just because a lot of people like something, it doesn't mean it's good, yet you seem to only use this reasoning as an excuse for your contrarianism. Sure, not everything will be for everyone, and in any given case you can find something overrated or unworthy of its praise, but with seven books and eight movies all being critically acclaimed and most viewers liking each one, it is highly unlikely that the series is purely ordinary and everyone must be on crack to love it. In other words, a good and valid criticism is one that can't be flipped around and applied to everything, and the fact that yours can be and stems from Noctis' post shows that it is purely reactionary and another incendiary attempt.
-----
quote: Originally posted by baumer*:
I think Twilight is brilliant. And compared to Potter it's Shakespeare. But this is just my opinion.
-----
If that wasn't enough to show it, here we go again. Twilight is Shakespeare compared to Potter? Is there any way to validate this statement? Oh, "this is just my opinion". Well, I think Gentle Ben hit it on the head hard when he said:
-----
quote: Originally posted by Gentle Ben:
I've finally realized what the purpose of the "this is just my opinion" tag is for! It's not for opinions, because those are readily identifiable without it. It's a way of immunizing indefensible claims against criticism. Slick!
quote: Originally posted by baumer*:
Well, you're going to have to do better than that Gentle Ben. I've been slagged for two years for liking Twilight. Criticism of my taste doesn't phase me. Its a fantastic story and its told with expert writing skills. I love the Twilight world.
-----
Yet, have you once even managed to make a valid point or have you ever been able to defend the criticism directed at it? Here, he isn't even criticizing your taste per se, what he did say is that you used the statement as a blanket ban on all future arguments against your "point". If you cannot justify your statement, then don't make it. Don't say "this is just my opinion" as though it explains why something is better than another. Otherwise why do we disapprove of radical Islamists, racists and Hitler? "Jihad is better than education to make a point.", "Whites are better than blacks.", "Aryans are superior to Jews and all other peoples who do not fit our description." If I prefaced it or if I ended my statement with "But this is just my opinion." it doesn't make your claim or "opinion" indefensible or well-argued. That statement does not absolve all valid arguments against it because it is as Gentle Ben put it. You have nothing to argue with, so let's just drop it in.
quote: Originally posted by baumer*:
Thanks for the tip Zodiac.
The story is what sells in Twilight. I don't care if Meyer is not as technically brilliant as King or LeCarre or Rowling. The story of vampires and werewolves living in precarious harmony in small town America and the love triangle that ensues when a big city girl arrives, is what sold me on it. I love it. If you don't, that is your perogative. But there are many that do, including yours truly. Wink
-----
As for the second part of your statement, you already refuted it in a previous post. If it's not technically brilliant how is it told with expert writing skills? Just another quandary you seem to have dug yourself into when giving no thought or credible point to your argument. The story is what sells Twilight? Again Gentle Ben put it perfectly when saying:
quote: Originally posted by Gentle Ben:
The entire story of the entire second and third entries can be summed up in two words: which boy?
------
which was also a perfect counter-argument to your ill-thought out:
quote: Originally posted by baumer*:
the story is furthered every time. Potter's isn't.
-----
which honestly is pure stupidity. You once were writing a novel, and I would hope then that like usual, you are just simply being your contrarian and incendiary self because, and I'm not sorry for being so direct, you aren't going to get far with such obviously incorrect statements. Oh wait, with the state of the industry, you might, but that doesn't mean you're right, because the giveaway of bad writing, is adding elements in later that had no link to the past or rather adding elements that are completely detached and useless a la the Volturi who from what I've read could be one of the weakest attempts at villains. In fact, the central conflict of all the Twilight books is pretty poor on paper, and probably in execution, but that doesn't seem to phase you for whatever reason. Yet it is imperative you must put down Potter and its story to boost your love for Twilight and that is pretty poor attack and defence as well.
-----
quote: Originally posted by baumer*:
Sanity has nothing to do with it.
I find a lot of Potter's story very bland. It spanned 7 books and it could have been told in maybe 3. IMO, Twilight warrants 4 books and the story is furthered every time. Potter's isn't. Wink
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The Wink doesn't make your statement any less controversial, contrarian or incorrect. The IMO comes out again as a way to end discussion. Poor show.
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"If you make yourself more than just a man... If you devote yourself to an ideal... You become something else entirely- A Legend."
Comments
It makes me laugh too when people here criticize someone who's made millions selling stories, brilliant stories, to the masses. Maybe you can do better. Wink
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http://www.ropeofsilicon.com/article/top-ten-list-worst-excuses-bad-movies/2
Substitute that for books, plays, whatever and it'll be the same. You've used probably every single one as defences for Twilight's supposed depth and intelligence before.
In fact, ignoring Twilight, you use it more than most for when you like something most people didn't and don't. That's your excuse for your contrarianism and continued hypocrisy.
The entire thread of "Not all movies are made for you" as Algren said in it, can also be responded to with that link.
As the author of the article put it, no comment needs to be made when someone uses the "maybe you can do better" excuse, yet I feel it necessary to do so even if it is futile. Actually, no, I don't know how I can put it any better than what he said. Your constant need to appear to be the neutral, bigger man by having all the better-than-thou espouses is completely hypocritical because you continue to violate more than most. "Date Movie", "Norbit", "Marmaduke" etc. they made money, some made a lot of money, yet is the only pro-argument to be used "Maybe you can do better"? Does it mean, that if a movie didn't make as much or sell as much, it is worse than a movie that made or sold more? What kind of critique is that? I shan't go into it too much, but that assumes that everyone who bought/saw it liked it which is obviously incorrect. What about Rebecca Black's "Friday"? Was that a good song? Just because it's got a hundred million views, does it mean she's popular? That she can sing without autotune? That she's good as Whitney Houston? There's a reason there is acclaim for certain movies, books, songs, plays, shows, art etc. and there's a reason why they hold up. You may not like that Tolkien or Shakespeare or Jane Austen are considered great authors, that doesn't mean they aren't or that their stories were boring. A movie that makes more is always better right? So by that stance Sorcerer's Stone is better than all the Twilight movies-oh but you can't agree with that, can you?
Similarly there's a reason why Twilight has received so much backlash from the ignorant Meyer's comments about werewolves and vampires, her cash-grab Edward-POV trilogy that was cancelled, the completely one-dimensional, misogynist Bella Swan, the tweenager relationship stance that pervades as a theme throughout the series and whatever else. I don't think I've ever seen any counter-argument to the many dissections of Meyer's writing on Bella's character that she is anything other than what I just described her as. I'm not 100% sure but did you not once try to argue that Twilight was a stance on true love? Sounds to me more like an adaptation of MTV's Teen Moms or whatever trash is shown on that channel. Typical for America and the world's constant loss of culture. People wonder why there are so many screwed up kids with no morals, well with successes like Twilight, there's your answer. The fact that people actually watch Paris Hilton's BFF series as though two people can actually develop a friendship through that or as I said Teen Moms and etc. is incredibly depressing.
Basically, it seems, that in Twilight, all you have to do, is do whatever a guy wants you to do and you'll end up happily ever after. No hardship, no depth, no intelligence, no, ALL relationships can survive on infatuation, sex and attempted suicides. The goal in life is to be a sex slave for your man and take care of children at 18 years old. No work, no sacrifice, no sense of reality, but sure, Twilight needed 4 books for that and Potter is simply bland and boring and could be finished in 3 books because all everyone wants to see is Voldie Vs Potter. Give me a break. That's been your laughable stance for forever now. It is hard to believe you're not sarcastic or being purposefully contrarian because it doesn't take a genius to see the difference in the books and gleam what its about and if you can in your mind conjure up that Twilight is about everlasting love it is farcical that all you could come up with about Potter is about two wizards fighting.
I would expand on that deserving books more, but somehow I don't think you'll give me a real response and I've used up enough time. I tried to not put too much emotion into it but I got carried away towards the end and for good reason too it seems to me when I realize that your style was meshing truu and pisher together. Still, I cannot deny I became snide but I think I'm going to save this and continue to refine it if it ever needs to surface again.
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Mysterious thing time.